New genealogists the think it over extreme you to Nicholas’ spouse Clementia is actually included right here as the, less than typical issues, she would not stated. Whenever Susanna in the some after big date received over to another type of protector, new spouse of this protector was not stated.
This should mean that Queen John spent sometime indeed there and you will the potential for an enthusiastic amorous liaison having Clementia is present
Here are some here’s a concept state-of-the-art by the specific eminent genealogists, but it is reasonable to declare that the fresh findings is hotly contested!
Which idea leads to a wonderful and you will interested ‘twist’ throughout the facts off Joanna, which may attract fans regarding HBD!
On top, there is nothing to highly recommend any partnership within hostage, Susanna out-of Wales and you can Clementia, spouse out of Nicholas de- Verdun. However, the experience of certain genealogists having foreign hostages, such as young ones, could have been which they was basically will put which have relatives, if any were offered.
Jumping forward to 1236, discover an entrance regarding the Tewkesbury annals and that pertains to Joanna’s mother as “King Clemencie!” They reads simply:
Today, we know that the mommy off Joanna are entitled Clementia (Clemence?
In cases like this the fresh new monk are plainly indulging in medieval legalism. In advance of their unique death, Joanna is legitimised by the Pope. On the basis of one legitimisation, the fresh Tewksbury monk obviously grabbed it through to himself to elevate Joanna’s mommy into the condition from Queen, since if her mom was King John’s partner! It is a fact however, one to Queen John and Clementia was in fact never ever partnered. By dealing with Joanna’s mother while the “Queen” Clementia, new monk which submitted Joanna’s dying is exhibiting their tall respect to possess Joanna, although not wanting to change the true factors.
When it comes to title out of Clementia de Verdun, Paget signifies that she is actually the latest daughter off Roger de- Dauntsey, away from Wiltshire. One genealogist considers they tall one to Clementia hailed out of Wiltshire because the they have realized that King John had an effective attachment so you can you to definitely state, it as being the home out-of their best allies, the brand new Longespee, ilies and you may Geoffrey Fitz Peter.
Genealogists have discovered your title ‘Clementia’ is actually really unusual one of English noblewomen from the months. In a single table of ladies’ names which had been collected, there have been only a couple of occurrences of the title “Clementia” off a total of 1407 women in brand new attempt! The reality that people named Clementia is associated with the Susanna is regarded as extreme.
Thus! The evidence is suggestive, but not definitive, you to definitely when you look at the 1228, Susanna, given that a good hostage, received off to the fresh new care of her maternal granny, now partner off Nicholas de Verdun!!
The newest Scottish genealogists of the MacDuffs’ keep that Susanna ferch Llywelyn was born 1214 during the Gwynnedd, Wales and you may died c. 1259 within the Dunfermline, Fife, Scotland. She hitched Malcolm MacDuff, Earl of Fife into the 1230 along with a couple pupils: Sir Colbran MacDuff, Earl off Fife, produced 1245, died 1270 and MacDuff MacDuff created 1247.
Of course, you can find prevent arguments to all the it supposition! Queen John had of a lot mistresses and perhaps as many as 7 illegitimate children. Mom from Joanna would have been born circa 1172 and you will marriageable circa 1184. Joanna by herself came to be circa 1191 (14 yrs . old during the time of their own wedding so you’re able to Llywelyn). Rohese, the fresh identified genuine child away from Nicholas de Verdun and his wife Clementia came into this world circa 1210-1213. When the Clementia are the mother off Joanna, she’d come in their late 30’s, very early how to find a Sao luis in Brazil wife 40’s when giving birth to Rohese! Perhaps not hopeless, specific state, but unlikely.